Crimes in the name of a god
58In "Travels in Siberia", Ian Frazier describes finding Old Believers in a remote part of Russia. These are people who broke off from what they considered to be a corruption of the Orthodox Church more than 400 years ago. The major distinction visible to outsiders is that the Old Believers make the sign of the cross with just two fingers while the "new" practice added the thumb to touch the other two fingers.
Ian found that the anger and hatred that had begun all those centuries ago had been carefully preserved, lovingly handed down from parent to child. The Old Believers still know who is their enemy, even if their enemies have long forgotten them.
Of course there was much more to it than just fingers and thumbs. There always is: what may look to outsiders to be simply a ridiculous argument about very minor things actually almost always really involves power and money, lust, politics and pride. The fingers and anything else just helps you know where to direct your anger. The reason for that anger is surely found elsewhere.
Heretics and schisms, antipopes and Saints
The Catholic Church is full of similar splits. The Orthodox Church that the Old Believers left (or that left them, from their point of view) split off from the rest many centuries before - barely after Christianity had begun.
The history of the arguing that caused these splits and rejoining and more splits again is complex and torturous and would be highly amusing if it really were only about fingers or what day of the week to worship.
This creed's heretic might be the founder of another creed or might have earlier been highly respected and praised in the same group that now reviles him. A false Pope who was deposed and replaced might still be made into a Saint by another Pope. The twists and turns are truly fascinating.
The Catholics are hardly alone, however. Roger Williams was convicted by Massachusetts of sedition and religious heresy in October of 1635. Rather than face banishment, he high-tailed it into the woods and thereafter had a lot to do with settling Rhode Island. That the Indian population living there no doubt had settled it quite satisfactorily centuries earlier is a different story, of course.
Power and money
The "dangerous opinions" (that's how the General Court of Massachusetts phrased it) of Roger Williams included the idea of separation of Church and State. He felt that people should be free to practice whatever religious beliefs they might hold and that the State shouldn't enforce its particular beliefs on others. The Puritans, having left England for exactly those reasons, were remarkably unsympathetic.
They surely didn't care for his negative thoughts about the virtues of stealing land from Indians by fiat, either. Dangerous opinions, indeed.
But dangerous to what? Dangerous to established power, of course. Roger Williams leanings toward anabaptism may have caused some self-righteous harrumphing at some dinner tables, but the true problem was the threat to established power. Landowners, church collection plates, political influence over minds wielded from the pulpit - those are the things that always matter.
The history of religion is always interwoven with power. Kings became Popes, kings rebelled against popes, wealthy families provided bishops and priests. Those same families may have had other financial arrangements where the Church sheltered their wealth from taxation by the State - while taxing itself, of course. Schisms over doctrine almost always have a deeper and darker origin.
A rich subject area
I think it might be fun to look more closely at some of the religious power struggles. There are amusing flip-flops and impassioned arguments, but the root cause isn't always easy to determine. Making it even more difficult is that the victors in these squabbles have often felt no distaste at all for rewriting history to support their goals and that fired up true believers may have joined the fray with great enthusiasm while never understanding what was really happening behind the public face of moral outrage.
Perhaps I'll look into some of those another day.
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I agree that there is generally more than religion at play in these conflicts. Many people, however, fail to recognize this fact, and they believe that religion is the root cause of most of humankind's wars. It can be a factor, but wealth and power generally matter more.
Anne Hutchinson was the other "nut job" who helped found Rhode Island. She had this crazy notion that God could actually minister through women. It's no wonder that those patriarchal Puritans wanted to get rid of her. Even today, many Christians would see her as a radical. As always, they are a bit behind the times.
While I agree it would be a rather difficult task, Pcunix, I would love to see you attempt it. I think you could actually write it in an unbiased way. No doubt, though, it would be a tedious endeavor. I will await your article with bated breath. lol Not really, but it sounded good. :)
Critias of ancient Grece thought that the authorities used religion to control the population.
Daughter of Mat,indeed.
Well, you warned me about following you but I did. I have also done the honor of reading your hub because I would like to have an open mind to listen to different views, far as they may be from what I believe. I am certain that by hearing the opinions of those who oppose us, we develop a strength in upholding our beliefs because then we understand why others may misunderstand us. The church is fraught with conflict as you already know, but conflict is very human, that is why we need God to help us build relationships and be more human.
Good hub ... but it's quite obvious, religionoids do require an irrational, mind numbing belief.
Yes, they do!
If they didn't have this god delusion, what else would keep their mind so tightly shut? Ok, maybe celebrity worship ... :)
Franto in Toronto
DITTO!
I do not join in religious forums for the same reason I will not take you on in your hub. You write well enough and short of the response I made, I will not be saying anything more. DITTO was a response to your to your reaction. Thanks.
Here's an interesting thought, and I'm just saying it to get opinions, not start WWIII. What makes people emotionally in need of a God? What makes us (the non religious) rationally NOT need a God? I'm not sure that makes sense, so here's what I'm thinking...
There are those of us who need logic and reason. I admit it, I need logic and reason in order to believe or know something. But I also don't rely on emotion. In fact I hate emotion simply because it is irrational. I was raised Roman Catholic, but have since renounced that faith. But there are other people who grow up believing so blindly, they'd die for it, which is purely emotional. Do you see where I'm going with this? Why do some people need a God to tell them how to be human? I mean that kind of sounds like they need to be told how to live... which, to me, sounds like an intelligence issue. But there are plenty of intelligent, yet religious people.
I hope that made sense, when my brain goes that fast it's hard to put it into words, and my hubby is usually the only one who gets it lol.
Maybe I'm just trying to get Pcunix to go deeper into this topic lmao
Ya but you didn't come up with an answer lol ;)I think it's one of those "7th wonder of the world" type things lol.
Okay, you write very well.
Well done! I enjoyed the hub. When it comes to state vs. religion (or their cooperation) I am always reminded of a book a read a few years back. You might find it interesting as well. William Manchester, an American historian, wrote an informal history called "A World Lit Only By Fire". All about the Middle Ages and a pretty heavy concentration on the struggle between church and state. Check it out if you have the time.
Ihave Manchester's 'The Glory and the Dream." The other one sounds great.
Yes to this hub! Naturalists and supernaturalists can get alone together with sharp opinions but civlity rules.
We of the Coffee Party urge civility!
History is written by the victorious!
Remember that Liars for Yeshua ever abound in the name of morality!
Duane Gish, professional liar, should be their president!
Picuniz, ruthless about those ideas from wretched, woeful, weirdos of yore!














Daughter Of Maat Level 6 Commenter 3 months ago
Excellent hub, you really left me wanting more. I love the "dangerous opinions." I love how the puritans ran from religious persecution only to inflict persecution on others, and thought nothing of it. Very thought provoking hub! Voted Up!